China throws money at domestic chip firm as TSMC stops taking orders from Huawei
The US move to impose a ban on any US tech being used in the production of Huawei chips has sent shockwaves through the semiconductor industry.
A couple of reports illustrate this well. Bloomberg notes that the Chinese state is pumping $2.25 billion into Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation. This will apparently give the Chinese state even more control over the company than it had anyway and is clearly a move designed to accelerate the country’s move towards silicon self-sufficiency, despite the company name.
Meanwhile the Nikkei Asian Review reports that TSMC has stopped taking new orders from Huawei as a direct result of the US ban. This is pretty massive for TSMC as Huawei is one of its biggest customers, so you have to wonder if the decision was influenced by incentives as well as threats from the US.
Huawei, of course, is not impressed with the latest US move against it. Here’s the statement made earlier today at its virtual analyst event in full.
Huawei categorically opposes the amendments made by the US Department of Commerce to its foreign direct product rule that target Huawei specifically.
The US government added Huawei to the Entity List on May 16, 2019 without justification. Since that time, and despite the fact that a number of key industrial and technological elements were made unavailable to us, we have remained committed to complying with all US government rules and regulations. At the same time, we have fulfilled our contractual obligations to customers and suppliers, and have survived and forged ahead against all odds.
Nevertheless, in its relentless pursuit to tighten its stranglehold on our company, the US government has decided to proceed and completely ignore the concerns of many companies and industry associations.
This decision was arbitrary and pernicious, and threatens to undermine the entire industry worldwide. This new rule will impact the expansion, maintenance, and continuous operations of networks worth hundreds of billions of dollars that we have rolled out in more than 170 countries.
It will also impact communications services for the more than 3 billion people who use Huawei products and services worldwide. To attack a leading company from another country, the US government has intentionally turned its back on the interests of Huawei’s customers and consumers. This goes against the US government’s claim that it is motivated by network security.
This decision by the US government does not just affect Huawei. It will have a serious impact on a wide number of global industries. In the long run, this will damage the trust and collaboration within the global semiconductor industry which many industries depend on, increasing conflict and loss within these industries.
The US is leveraging its own technological strengths to crush companies outside its own borders. This will only serve to undermine the trust international companies place in US technology and supply chains. Ultimately, this will harm US interests.
Huawei is undertaking a comprehensive examination of this new rule. We expect that our business will inevitably be affected. We will try all we can to seek a solution. We hope that our customers and suppliers will continue to stand with us and minimize the impact of this discriminatory rule.
According to the Global Times, Huawei had a cunning plan to order loads of chips from TSMC during the grace period included in the US measures, but the Nikkei story would appear to scupper that. To add insult to injury, Nokia has just announced a 5G network deal win with Taiwan Star Telecom. It increasingly looks like Taiwan is doing everything it can to distance itself from the Chinese state, something the latter is very unlikely to take lying down.
Telecoms.com Daily Poll:
Do you feel the US Government is justified in its action against Huawei?
- Yes, it is effectively a pawn for the Chinese Government (42%, 331 Votes)
- No, Trump shouldn't punish a company just because it is Chinese (23%, 182 Votes)
- No, international competition should be left to sort itself out (21%, 166 Votes)
- Maybe, but show us the evidence of foul play first (12%, 97 Votes)
- Yes, but Government links are not there (1%, 6 Votes)
Total Voters: 782
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China’s a lot like the USSR used to be – with several important extra assets. This country is ruled by a very powerful communist government which has successfully engendered and embraced modern high-tech operations: through manufacturing and international marketing. This includes the entire supply chain, from advanced semiconductors through digital communications systems (notably Huawei and ZTE) and 5G-based services provided by the likes of China Mobile, China Telecom and China Unicom – all either outright government-owned or with government majority stakes. This high-tech industrial effort was never attempted by the USSR – which believed in massive military might alone.
I think some of you either watching far too long CNN and BBC or completely lacking of common sense and education. This is the only source of information you have. Perhaps you could read few books instead. Compering China to USSR? Really, are you mad? Have you ever been in the those countries? Did you know that bottom 50% of USA population either stagnated or become poorer for the past 40 years? While in China increase? China will become superpower and USA have to accept no 2 spot!!!
The topic of conversation is actually Huawei. But since you raised the matter, the Chinese Communist Party kept most Chinese people living in abject poverty until the 1990’s. Not difficult to claim success when you’re starting from nothing in the first place. The US and the West helped China be the economy it is today. Be grateful. In fact, Huawei’s success stems from it emulating the experiences of its Western competitors.
Maybe the Chinese Communist Party can wipe away history that’s embarrassing for itself in Mainland China, it certainly can’t do the same internationally.
No one will ever bring down the Chinese progress, just a matter of time
Respectfully, I don’t think the oppressed Uighur Muslim population in Xinjiang and the rest of Mainland China would call the Chinese Communist party’s governance ‘progress’ somehow. The Chinese Communist Party does not even tolerate Ramadan in Xinjiang unfortunately and Uighur Muslims are automatically listed as ‘untrustworthy’ in a Mainland Chinese app which is used for the social credit system.
I do not think that is true uighurs are Chinese and they enjoy their religion in their freely in their region and anywhere in China, only hardliners and terrorists supported by Western countries are rounded up.
No one believes your nonsense Chinese Communist Party propaganda. Get a proper job and stop working as Beijing’s boot lickers as the 五毛党.
China will rule the world, power that will not wage war against muslim countries during holy month of Ramadan , they are peaceful nation, not interested in causing division around the globe
You do realise Huawei is complicit with a Uighur Muslim concentration camp programme that is going on in Xinjiang, 共匪? The Chinese Communist Party uses Huawei equipment that keeps close tabs on Uighurs in concentration camps as well as Tibetans and anyone else that disagrees with the Chinese Communist Party. In the West, we respect religious and ethnic diversity. Mainland China most certainly does not.
U.S. painting itself into a corner
Dr Wong.
You don’t mention that the Chinese government are killing Uighurs. Only controling the situation..
How many Vietnamese were killed by Americans?
How many Yemenis are killed by American armaments?
How many laotians were killed by anerica warplanes?
The subject on this thread is Huawei, not US interventionism. But I will indulge you.
Being anti Huawei is not anti China. It is anti Chinese Communist Party:
The Cultural Revolution.
Tiananmen Square 1989 massacre.
Mass killing of Uighur, Tibetan and ethnic Chinese political prisoners.
Organ harvesting of political prisoners.
COVID-19 pandemic.
The Chinese Communist Party committed all the above atrocities and cannot be kicked out of office nor face accountability for their actions. Trump, fortunately, and other US Presidents can be booted out of office. Huawei (the actual subject of discussion on this thread) cannot be trusted and provides technology which persecutes the Chinese people. If Huawei 5G is used in the West, we could share the same unfortunate fate.
What about the uighurs usa keeps in guantanamo bay
To get China support for the Iraq war
USA should stop the hypocrisy and release the innocent
uighurs they have detained indefinitely
Before acting high and mighty
Uighur people do not belong to China.
Congratulations President Tsai of Taiwan on your landslide victory!
Taiwan is an impressive and fantastic country!
You really should stop watching CCTV Chinese state media news. It’s ok, we forgive your ignorance. It’s not you Mainland Chinese people’s fault for your misinformation. It’s your government for the lies they tell you.
God bless China and hope you poor people will have lives in the future where you don’t have to post comments online late at night as a job because you have no other way of earning money.
You actually asked right question. What do you think about Gantanomo and secret prissons? It’s the same case as chinese detention camps, but under US order. Non of US allies dare to ask anything about that cases. Guess why? Nobody care about human rights in Saudi Arabia by only one, simple reason – it’s one of the America’s close allies in Middle East. At the same time people like you concerned with China. You know why. Because you’re not intrested in principles of freedom at all, you’re not concerned with it really. You just push your anti-china rhetoric without concerns about human rights generally. Which makes you just another hypocrite, exact the same as those who just pursuing their goals undee the guise of good intentions. Otherwise you would beware of playing on US side, especially Trump’s, fascist US side.
But the West is mature enough to talk about its failures. Most right-minded Western politicians admit Guantanamo is wrong and many Western businesses backed away from Saudi after the Khashoggi killing after government pressure.
Tiananmen Square Massacre June 4th, 1989
Cultural Revolution
Will the CCP ever admit its atrocities in Mainland China such as the ones above? Will they stop censoring them on the Chinese internet? Will the CCP ever teach its citizens how wrong the Tiananmen Square Massacre was in the same way US school textbooks freely talk about the failures of the Vietnam War? The CCP, much like Trump, acts like a petulant child and is too scared of losing face. Difference is, Trump won’t be in power for long. Xi Jinping is ruler for life.
Of course, we should continue dealing with private Chinese companies. The Chinese people are not the enemy. It is the CCP, of which Huawei is an inextricable part, that is the problem and is too high risk to allow into our networks.
I meant not only Khashoggi murder, I mean many Saudi practices, the West is quiet about, still partnering with Kingdom, doing bussiness as usual, supply arms.
Despite discussions Guantanomo is still exists and functioning, Obama didn’t close that. Democratic party’s political will is not enought, due to slight desire to close such institutions, and probably there is no political will to do so inside of Republican party. Most of voters also don’t care of that cases, or even they support such institutions in name of national security (ask GOP voters). Same with American secret prissons in variuos countries.
In US itself, for a long time not everything is good with freedom of speech, because of standarts of journalism is getting lower. Do you remeber Iraqui invasion? Execuse was tube with washing powder (or something), which been demonstrated at UN assembly by Secretary of State (!!!). Do you remeber New York times publications that confirms that fasle claims? As a result of invasion, they didn’t find any of chemical weapons in Iraq. Same lies we hear now from Trump and Pompeo, trying to convince us of COVID laboratory origin, the same time as experts who mostly working on research of viruses says “there are no genetically modified sections in COVID genome”. Which means that the virus is definetly originated in nature. Attemps to prove otherwise, as pitty, as attempts to prove that Earth is flat. But it does not stop Trump&co. They looks pitty as if they tell you about “flat Earth” straight in your eyes without any shame. Isn’t it? The same time polls shows that 50% of Fox News viewers believe in such primitive conspiracy being told by their president. Something wrong with american society. That another prof that keeping the high standarts of journalism is critical in democratic societies, as the same time they getting lower and lower in the west. Why french international media outlet didn’t report french protests at the last year, but they were busy talking about Hong Kong, when protests in their own country lasted longer and caused 11 dead??? But they don’t speak about that like nothing happened. France is democracy or not? Is there freedom of spech? The same medias busy talking about Hong Kong, as the same time they are quiet about Catalonia and their imprissoned leaders and activists.
There is no a single evidence about backdoors in Huawei equpment, vice versa, British agency and autorities confirmed that they didn’t find any bachkdoor in Huawei equpment, the same time there are tons of evidence about backdoors in Cisco equpment, but again, nobody sanction Cisco, nobody cares, US media quiet about that.
Respectfully, UK intelligence agencies are now more concerned about Huawei’s involvement, even in the non core areas of telecommunications. U.K. Parliamentary reviews about Huawei are happening over the course of the next few weeks, so watch this space.
Tiananmen Square, June 4th 1989
Cultural Revolution, 40 million Chinese dead unfortunately.
Are these atrocities too embarrassing for you to talk about?
US and Western telco companies are not perfect. No one is saying that and you are respectfully missing the point. But every Mainland Chinese company has Communist Party cells that can ultimately control the running of a private company. This means that companies such as Huawei and even Alibaba have such cells.
The equivalent in the West would be if a group of Republican Party officials in the US or a group of Conservative Party officials in the U.K were to dictate and control a ‘private’ company’s policy. Note, I’m not just saying CCP members. It’s a cell that is attached to the company. Inevitably, even though Huawei is not officially a State Owned Enterprise, that’s a massive conflict of interest and in Xi Jinping’s view, the so-called ‘national good’ of China would take priority over what a private enterprise would want to do. So if Xi ordered a cyber attack on U.K. infrastructure, his wish would be Huawei’s command. And who’s to differentiate between core and non core networks?
You mentioned COVID-19. Why didn’t the Wuhan authorities listen to the hero Dr Li Wenliang? Why did they try to shut him up? Was he too ordinary a person for the high and mighty CCP to take notice of? Clearly the CCP thought they knew better than Dr Li. This dreadful virus has since spread around the world as a result. Why didn’t Beijing learn the mistakes of SARS 2002 that originated in Guangdong? They could have saved China and the world from a lot of problems.
Personally, I love China and I am sad President Xi has taken the course he has. 10 years ago, I would have argued Huawei represented no threat. Back then, CCP officials did not attempt to shape corporate governance to the extent it does now. Now, the CCP’s very active involvement even in the ‘private’ sector is very alarming, hence Huawei cannot be trusted.
UK officials still didn’t find any confirmation of backdoors in Huawei equpment, period. All suspicions about Huawei are unproved. Officials from various countries such as US, Germany, UK still didn’t find anything that confirm suspicions of backdoors for attack or espionage. That’s matter. Isn’t it? When suspicions agains US (government and companies) confirmed many times from different sources. That’s matter too. Isn’t it? American companies involved in their government affairs for years. But nobody going to do anything about that. It’s all unfair to me. It’s like one person should be jailed for only unproved suspicious, while another should be go away despite the evidence, all witness testimony, documents, just because hi is hold other political views. And the one who was released would speak in defence of justice and equality. It’s all smells like a castle system, but only in international scale. Right now I see how President of US with the support of GOP, dictate (one way or another) to private companies, not only in US, but worldwide, how to run their bussineses, whith whom to collaborate, with whom to deal, where to buy, where to manufacture. Ironically, the president of country which is claims to be capitalist and has free market economy. Capitalism is not so capitalist today, who knows, maybe less capitalist than chinese communism.
As I know, those Wuhan autorities where suspended and Dr. Li honored as National Hero. We are still know not so much about COVID, to say for sure where and when geographically the virus originated. Maybe COVID as chinese as Spanish flu is spanish. Do you know what I mean? Some intresting facts. In november of 2019 french fishermen has been in ICU from pnewmoniq caused by flu (they thought at that time), but recently his old samples (from november of 2019) has been tested positive for COVID. The men has not any links or contacts with chinese nationals and have never been in China. Another fact Belleville mayor Michael Melham was tested positive for COVID antybodies, hi said hi was sick at late november after trip to Atlantic City. Further research revealed that his antybodies are old. That means that first known cases in US and France where month before first known case in China.
“They could have save China and the world from a lot of provlems” exact the same thing may be said about every country in the world where infectious diseases once originated. Do you know how many of them originated from the West? Probably the most. Why nobody tried or trying to sue any other countries including western ones, for that diseases?
Trump&co just blaming other for their faults, such as dismission of task force created by Obama, for exact the same situations. Earlier Trump said COVID is just a flu and it’s will magically disappear at april.
Tiananmen Square, June 4th, 1989
The Cultural Revolution, 40 million dead
The world cannot trust or respect the PRC until it is able to mature and admit its past failings. A country that is insecure with its past is a weak country.
Dr Li Wenliang tragically died because Beijing thought it was too important and they didn’t want to listen to what they thought was an insignificant doctor in Wuhan. Dr Li was an inspirational man that bravely tried to alert the CCP of the virus. He was shouted down, accused of making “false comments” and “severely disturbing the social order.” He will always be remembered as a hero. Mainland Chinese people are intelligent enough to remember the true story and not be overcome by a changing of the narrative to suit the Party’s interests.
The CCP has been very economical with the truth concerning its figures over COVID-19. Morgues and crematoriums have been dealing with a much larger number of virus cases than the CCP admits to have. 500,000 deaths in Mainland China at least is the leaked estimate.
Actually, the South China Morning Post reported the first symptomatic case was November 17th in Wuhan. That is according to CCP government data. Wuhan doctors were saying that consequently it is highly likely the virus would have emerged in Wuhan even before then.
If the CCP can’t even tell the Chinese people the truth about the Tiananmen Square massacre and the Wenzhou train crash, it certainly isn’t telling the truth to Chinese citizens and the rest of the world about COVID-19.
Now, Huawei is placating the West. Lying low and convincing governments to accept it to role out their kit.
But who’s to say in the future it wouldn’t be involved with cyber hacking our infrastructure on the command from Beijing? CCP cells are mandated even in so-called ‘private’ companies and, according to the CCP, national interest (retaining CCP power) is more important than the interests of private enterprise.
We know how opaque the CCP system is and how unwilling they are to co-operate and share information with the outside world (think refusal to even admit the WHO into Wuhan to ascertain more about the virus.) So why even take the risk with Huawei when the distinction between the CCP and private enterprise is so blurred?
Actually Dr. Li is CCP, because hi is a the party member. We know very little about COVID, I prefer don’t say what I don’t know. Can you give a link to your sources. I saw many unproved estimates about millions of cases and dozens and hundreds of deaths, but in my oppinion it smells like a bullshit. China is back to normal life or close to it, when US has million cases, but for sure, that number is underestimated (nobody knows how much). Just some people love to demonize China. Actually numbers of cases underestimated in EVERY country in the world, but nobody knows how much in each of them. In my subjective oppinion not so much in China.
“Now Huawei placating the West.” As I can see Huawei behaves very noble despite tons of lies towards them. Seems to me ,Chinese tech is ok. At least no evidence has been found. Honestly I think that would be better if every side has it’s own tech and services. I would be glad to see if EU developed it’s own communication networks, internet services like China and US. Way to go european youtube, web search, etc.
With pleasure I can give you the link.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3074991/coronavirus-chinas-first-confirmed-covid-19-case-traced-back
This is from the South China Morning Post. In Mainland China, you need a VPN to access this. What a surprise.
South China Morning Post is owned by Jack Ma (owner of Alibaba) and is certainly not a Western media outlet anymore and was very critical of the recent Hong Kong protests.
Many in Mainland China are Communist Party members. Many see being a CCP member as important to get a job, or even out of bullying or fear. Mainlanders have no choice. They have to survive. Ultimately, the CCP let Dr Li Wenliang down very badly indeed as they showed their complete disdain and arrogance towards Wuhan doctors such as Dr Li.
You say you’d be glad if EU had its own telco tech. It does, it’s called Nokia and Ericsson. Nokia is already rolling out 5G tech in the US for example. Of course, you’d say China tech is okay, you’re 五毛党.
Tiananmen Square massacre, June 4th, 1989
Cultural Revolution, 40 million Chinese dead unfortunately
Any thoughts still on the above atrocities that the CCP committed and to this day do not let Mainland Chinese people search these embarrassing episodes for the CCP on the Chinese internet?
40 million dead that died during the Cultural Revolution in Mainland China because of the CCP. The same government that rules the PRC today. That’s more than the total number of Mainland Chinese that died during World War 2. It is thanks to the likes of Huawei tech and the heavy-handiness with which the CCP threatens these so-called ‘private‘ companies with bullying corporate governance policies that those atrocities are censored from the Chinese internet and accountability for them is absolved.
Thank you. But I asked you to link of your sources about 800 thousands dead from COVID.
No, I’m no 50 cent party as you said. I’m not from China, I’m not chinese, I don’t live in China, I don’t work for them (nor government, nor private sector). Why did you think that way? Are you biased so much that any objective reasonig makes you think that I was paid?
I think it is a reasonable assumption to make the assertion regarding the 五毛党 (fifty cent party.) You never directly address the points of the Tiananmen Square massacre or the Cultural Revolution, for example. This is a hallmark of the 五毛党. It is very difficult for us to trust anything Beijing says when they even refuse to talk about a time when their own government left 40 million people dead during the Cultural Revolution, yet employ people to censor such atrocities in the PRC and assign people to post positive comments online about the PRC in the West. It seems like a big vanity project and a waste of money that could be spend better on lifting Mainland Chinese citizens out of poverty.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/12/leaked-chinese-coronavirus-database-number-cases/
To be clear, I mentioned 500,000 not 800,000 that you said. It should also be cases, not deaths. Whatever, the true number may be, whilst many countries are continually compensating for underestimations of COVID-19 deaths, taking into account care homes for the elderly, diseases related to COVID-19 etc, the PRC only made one such revision for Wuhan. The New York Times posted all the names of people that have died so far of COVID-19 in the state on one of their front pages last week. At the same time, the PRC doesn’t even attempt to correct the colossal underreporting. If Beijing can’t even freely talk about how many people died on the Mainland as a result of the pandemic and how to prevent another, how can we trust them on anything?
In any case, many on the pro Huawei side assume that all who are sceptical or against Huawei are pro Trump. I am on the left of the political spectrum and certainly do not support Trump. It is therefore not unreasonable to make the assertion that Huawei poses a security threat. U.K. intelligence officials didn’t label Huawei ‘high risk’ for no reason. Thus, it is possible to be pro China, like myself, but anti CCP and therefore deeply sceptical of Huawei’s future role in the Western telco sector.
Yes you said 500 thousands, not 800, my fault. But in previous message you said “500,000 deaths in Mainland China at least is the licked estimate”. Now you says “I mentioned 500,000 not 800,000 that you said. It should also be cases, not deaths.” So if you meant 500 thousand cases not deaths, this is a very big difference between your statements, to some extent, you contradict yourself.
FP: “It’s unclear as yet how the university (chinese military university) gathered the data.” It’s very important how did they do it, are there suspected but not objectively (thru testing) confirmed cases inclued. It’s exact what I meant kn previous message. Nobody knows how much cases in each country they are. Official numbers in vast majority of countries, if not all contains only objectively confirmed cases from among tested. In US, for example, mass testing is still has nor adopted. If we start to include in US statistics the number of unconfirmed (suspected) cases, the number can grow at times if not a tens of times. Do you know, in US not every hospitaluzed patient with flu simpotoms or even with pnemoniq is tested for COVID due to lack of test kits, not every person with flu simptoms is tested for COVID. If we start to include suspected cases in US (or in Italian, or Spanish, or French, or Japaniese) statistics the numbers will grow at times too. At least ct-scan confirmed cases are included in Chinese official numbers, while in US are not. Dr. Fauci said that those who died at home weren’t tested and included in statistics, those who got sick at home wheren’t tested.
Of course UK don’t trust Huawei, because US, UK, Australia, NZ, Canada used to overhear anyone and share information with each other, in that terms only US tech may be trusted for them.
About Chinese history. History of many countries is controvesial, history of my country too. It’s important to evaluate history sensibly and not to go to extremes.
Yes, also an innocent mistake on my part there regarding cases and deaths, I admit fault too. But you must also understand that an 500,000 cases compared to 82,971 in Mainland China would be rather a colossal underestimate of the figures. Sure, every country has their own reporting standard. It just so happens that Mainland China’s has been incredibly inconsistent, downright deceitful and misleading. One moment, Beijing are counting asymptomatic cases, the next moment, they’re not. And why did Beijing not allow the WHO into the country to investigate in January? Every country is obliged to report these matters in an expedient way to the WHO, especially if there is a risk of a pandemic. If the PRC had an open and transparent system that allowed the WHO to investigate, that would have been beneficial to the rest of the world. It seems the CCP were just too stubborn and arrogant to allow mere foreigners into the country to investigate. Why were no lessons learnt from SARS in 2002?
Personally, I don’t see any merit in sweeping any history under the carpet. Many of my parents generation fled the horrors of the Cultural Revolution, a period of immense starvation, famine and political turmoil. Surely the CCP would gain more legitimacy and respect from the Chinese people and the international community if they were to allow a free and open discussion about the likes of the Cultural Revolution and Tiananmen Square massacre?
For instance, even Russia over the past few years has got to grips with its past as the USSR. The international community respected Russia all the more for it, especially in the 1990’s.
Hypothetically, if Japan, Taiwan, South Korea or Singapore were to propose to roll out 5G networks, Western countries would still find it acceptable. It’s not about arbitrarily targeting specific countries, it’s about assessing to what extent Huawei is truly an independent, private company. Considering how expansive and all-reaching the CCP is, it is inevitable that it will affect Huawei corporate culture. There is no doubt if ever there were to be a future escalation in relations between the West and the PRC and if Huawei was involved in the West’s networks, the PRC could exploit that to its advantage.
Even if the Chinese government could use Huawei in the future, do you know how many phone calls the US is monitoring? Even if the Chinese government rejects the WHO investigation. Do you know the Iraq investigation into the washing powder incident? As a Chinese, you are not qualified, each country has its own appropriate system, the Chinese Communist Party may not be perfect, but it is the most needed by the Chinese people, do you know what I mean? America, which claims to have the most perfect system, sometimes breaks down
I’m from Belarus. I well know what happened to Russia in 90’s. Once great power, today Russia is dying country. Starvation, alcohol, drug addiction, corruption. Western experts were busy walking walking arround military objects, giving directions how to saw intercontinental nuclear missiles, how to disassemble nuclear strategic subs, while many russian girls were sucking dick at foreigners for a lot of dollars to feed themselves and their families. All manufactures was closed, abandoned. Countryside population dicreased with rapid speed due to mass alchogolism, uneploinment after kolhozes and sovhozes closed. Since 90’s there is demographic disaster in Russia. Just try to find a deffinition of “russian cross (demographic)” term, in russian it’s “русский крест”. To be honest, Russia is dying out today. It’s just raw materials appendage today. There is no manufacturing, no nothing, except shops, malls that trade foreign goods, mostly chinese, europian. Implementation of democracy cost of tens of millions of lives, to be honest. Today, many in Russia and Belarus looks at China and CCP with admiration, that they smarter than us, to avoid that traps from the west. Remeber, the West doesn’t care about russian or chinese, or whatever else people, well being, they doesn’t care about democracy in China or Russia, or elsewhere. All that retoric mostly excuse for their goals to brainwash population of that countries.